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Old May 27, 2010, 02:58 PM // 14:58   #181
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This made me proud to be a Guild Wars player! It's really great to see this kind of effort put into the game still.

I would have loved to be in an argument with a botter and then just have him struck down by Dhuum mid-sentence. Ultimate victory!
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Old May 27, 2010, 03:16 PM // 15:16   #182
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Originally Posted by Morgoth the dark View Post
i just checked wiki for update and what's there :




hahaha someone is raging haha
Cool, Justice has been served.

Feels like a proper player and my reward is all those delicious tears.
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Old May 27, 2010, 03:59 PM // 15:59   #183
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Apparently Shadow Form did not protect them bottars!

To bad I didn't play while the botters were getting banned, if I knew I would be getting myself some popcorn at the locals. Good Game!
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Old May 27, 2010, 04:19 PM // 16:19   #184
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i wonder if there is a pile of bot bodies in dhuums lair......

once he got round the botters can he be the 'on call scam evader'....'/report helps i is getting scamzed!!...'Dhumm is here never fear'....SWOOOSH ...pwned.
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Old May 27, 2010, 06:33 PM // 18:33   #185
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That's awesome, and you failed to respond to or acknowledge the other example I gave of how somebody might down load but not use a bot... or are you still insisting that it's inconceivable? Uh huh...
It's not inconceivable. But, it's a somewhat involved process to install a bot. First, you need to download an injector for the DLL (Some bots come with these, but for this, we'll ignore it), then the DLL itself, then you have to set up the bot to use, if not write one yourself. Why would someone go through that entire process just to stare at a shortcut on their desktop?
Not to mention that even installing a bot is against the EULA (It modifies the executable)

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You insisted that ArenaNet banned people based purely on an IP list of downloaders with no actual in game checking to see if they'd actually botted... if that's the case then surely downloading a bot MUST be a violation of the EULA?
I never said soley (Well, it wasn't intended, but I see how it could be taken that way) - But that they did use the IP list in their bannings.

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Really, you compare something that is free and easy to download to spending hundreds of dollars on a game console? I've downloaded crap that I never ended up using... I don't recall ever buying an expensive gaming console with no intention of ever using it... I mean, sure, if you're retarded...

Yeah... you still didn't address that did you?
I didn't address that because it didn't merit addressing. But, since you seem so keen on this, here goes: There is not any appreciable difference. Just because you spend money on something does not mean that you'll use it. You seem to take stock in how much something costs vs how much you'll use it; I'll beg to differ. I spent 400$ on my PS3, but I still use my 4$ Ikea frying pan more often. Not to mention, that if you buy something, that shows intent to use it. I don't know about you, but I don't download random executables without first knowing what they are and knowing that I'll at least use it once.

Quote:
Yeah... you never said that they just got an IP list of bot downloaders and blanket banned them based on those IP lists... lol.
Blanket banning does not (In how it was meant) show no investigations or something to the matter. I overused the word "Blanket ban", to be sure, and yes, it was a mistake.
Quote:
*Yawn* Sorry you were saying something? Oh um right... something about a reasonable explanation for the sudden shit load of bans being dished out?

Okies, how about this... Anet has been monitoring and detecting bots for a while, refining the detection algorithms used on their servers automated bot flagging, this involves studying the bots behavior/response times and such until they have a set of factors that can accurately discern bot 'behavior' from regular player behavior for all known bots (that is, bots that they know about)... voila, after much work they create a script to flag bots behavior and use it to monitor both in-game activity, and to back check the server logs for such tell tale signs of botting... much banning follows.
All without a conspiracy theory, all without accusing them of blanket banning people based on an IP table from a bot site, all without having to be a genius.
So you're saying that instead of banning people spot on, and instead causing grief for legitimate players for the time they were "Studying" them, they watched them? Not to mention, it's hard to recognize botting when it's a well-made bot. Any freshmen in college for computer programming/sciences can make a psudo-random pathing algorithm - Hell, that's exactly how the ghosts catch Packman. As for server logs, I honestly don't know how well they keep logs, so I can't say much about it. (I honestly thought they only kept trade/chat logs, and then only for a couple of weeks, but I could very well be wrong.)
And while your theory makes sense, keep in mind that bot behavior is very hard to discern for even a mediocre bot. Sure, there's a few tell-tale signs (Interrupting 1/4th second casts, always running the same route) but getting the well-made bots that I know were used is harder then it looks. While someone can say "Oh look, this guy has botting behavior", it's much harder for a computer to do the same thing. (Keep in mind I'm not talking about the obvious interrupt-bot, or the Mo/Xs in Burgen) - What qualifies a human instead of a bot? Interaction? This last weekend I was farming the dragon mosses for res scrolls and golds (As well as faction) - During the 5-7ish hours I was farming, I maybe said "Hi" twice, and that's it.
Alright, so what else? They random check hero stats (pressing H), guild and friend lists? Bots do that too. In fact, it's almost standard now. As well as the inventory, buying and selling what they need to.
Bots do everything in the exact same order every single time? So do I, when I raptor farm. Hell, aside from a few bad spawns, I do that with Vaettirs and random other stuff (Can't think of any other things I've farmed recently).

And keep in mind, even if they did check to see if there was an extraneous DLL being used, it's still possible to bot without it. Simply hook into the WinAPI and use that. The DLL used by most bots just make it convenient to others making bots so that they don't have to deal with all the bullcrap that is WinAPI. (Also makes it more compatible on stuff like WINE, etc)
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Old May 27, 2010, 06:58 PM // 18:58   #186
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This is purely.....awesome! Too bad I missed it.
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Old May 27, 2010, 07:00 PM // 19:00   #187
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This is purely.....awesome! Too bad I missed it.
lol, it seems that your petition was answered eh?
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Old May 27, 2010, 07:02 PM // 19:02   #188
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man i am really sorry I missed it too! anet should put up vids, dhuum is so cool! Like, bam! Reaped: p
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Old May 27, 2010, 07:18 PM // 19:18   #189
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Originally Posted by Eragon Zarroc View Post
lol, it seems that your petition was answered eh?
Looks like it! Man, I'm still kind of shocked. I only got online 2 hours ago.....and so much happened.

Too bad so many guys got banned using KSMod and Multi-launcher. That doesn't seem fair, but hey....Anet warned everyone using .dll injection that it could lead to a ban, so meh.

Luckily, I never touched anything like them
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Old May 27, 2010, 07:59 PM // 19:59   #190
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Originally Posted by Karate Jesus View Post
Too bad so many guys got banned using KSMod and Multi-launcher.
So they say. I'm not so sure I believe those stories. As I said in another thread, I know dozens of people who use KSMod, Texmod and Multi-Launcher (including myself), and none of them have been banned.
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Old May 27, 2010, 08:17 PM // 20:17   #191
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So they say. I'm not so sure I believe those stories. As I said in another thread, I know dozens of people who use KSMod, Texmod and Multi-Launcher (including myself), and none of them have been banned.
I only personally know of 1 person who was banned for using KSMod and didn't bot. However, I've heard reports of others.

But the one guy I know already has his account back.....so they're working on it.
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Old May 27, 2010, 08:22 PM // 20:22   #192
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So they say. I'm not so sure I believe those stories.
Agreed.

Safe bet a large percentage are botters wanting to discuss the issue while dodging the label.I'd imagine any legitimate claims with legitimate mod use that haven't been reported or un-banned yet will be resolved in the next few days.

At the moment it's a window of opportunity for denial I guess.
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Old May 27, 2010, 09:08 PM // 21:08   #193
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OMFG That's AWESOME! I missed it. Hopefully it will continue so I can see it.
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Old May 27, 2010, 09:36 PM // 21:36   #194
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used textmod extensively back in the day for carto, just checked and I wasn't banned, not that I really care since I've stopped playing since half a year ago, but this event makes me want to log on and stay for the lulz while it lasted.

If this isn't ongoing then it should be one, like over a span of 2 or 3 days or something. More people get to see it, and it plays mindgames on the botters. "phew i wasn't banned lol A.net suc---oh crud...."
Last edited by Valcion; May 27, 2010 at 09:38 PM // 21:38..
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Old May 27, 2010, 10:31 PM // 22:31   #195
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Can anyone confirm whether they ban based on IP address?

All my family play GW, I do not believe that any of them would bot - frankly I do not think they would know how - but I woud hate to have my account banned for something someone else did.
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Old May 28, 2010, 12:49 AM // 00:49   #196
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Originally Posted by MithranArkanere View Post
Nope, once you are proven guilty, if you really are innocent, then there was some kind of mistake.

Bans are not always death penalties. Sometimes there are room for a review.

But make no mistake. A ban is the applied sentence, not the trial.
QFT!


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Old May 28, 2010, 01:31 AM // 01:31   #197
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Originally Posted by Killamus View Post
It's not inconceivable. But, it's a somewhat involved process to install a bot. First, you need to download an injector for the DLL (Some bots come with these, but for this, we'll ignore it), then the DLL itself, then you have to set up the bot to use, if not write one yourself. Why would someone go through that entire process just to stare at a shortcut on their desktop?
Not to mention that even installing a bot is against the EULA (It modifies the executable)
That's all well and good, but then, we're not talking about installing a bot are we, no we aren't... we're merely talking about an IP list of people who downloaded a bot. Downloaded, changed their minds and never installed or used it is still downloading it... or are you suggesting that an IP list of downloaders from a bot site would somehow include data on who later installed the bot?

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Originally Posted by Killamus View Post
I never said soley (Well, it wasn't intended, but I see how it could be taken that way) - But that they did use the IP list in their bannings.
Well, actually you did, that's why I quoted you saying it. Multiple times.
You might not of meant it (IN HINDSIGHT) but you certainly said it.

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Originally Posted by Killamus View Post
I didn't address that because it didn't merit addressing. But, since you seem so keen on this, here goes: There is not any appreciable difference. Just because you spend money on something does not mean that you'll use it. You seem to take stock in how much something costs vs how much you'll use it; I'll beg to differ. I spent 400$ on my PS3, but I still use my 4$ Ikea frying pan more often. Not to mention, that if you buy something, that shows intent to use it. I don't know about you, but I don't download random executables without first knowing what they are and knowing that I'll at least use it once.
Right, and how many half a million dollar houses do you go out and buy, with no intention of ever using them in any way? Yeah, silly I know... just like your Ikea frying pan notion.

My point, people don't generally go out and throw down hundreds of dollars on something that they never intend to use. People are far less discriminating about grabbing some that is free and readily available, even if it turns out that they might decide later not to use it.

That is to say, your PS3 argument was silly and irrelevant. And by 'was' I mean 'still is'.

Just as your argument that if somebody downloads something, then they are sure as hell going to install and use it... it's not possible that they could CHANGE THEIR MIND.

I obviously disagree with you, what's more I don't think downloading something, but not installing and using it would meet the threshold needed for ArenaNet to declare that a breach of their EULA has indeed occurred.

But then, I also think all that should be readily obvious, I'm sorry that you disagree.

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Originally Posted by Killamus View Post
Blanket banning does not (In how it was meant) show no investigations or something to the matter. I overused the word "Blanket ban", to be sure, and yes, it was a mistake.
But you did more than just state a blanket ban, you even denied the possibility of Anet having a method of bot detection and instead resorting to simply banning those on the IP lists... which is why I quoted you saying that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killamus View Post
So you're saying that instead of banning people spot on, and instead causing grief for legitimate players for the time they were "Studying" them, they watched them? Not to mention, it's hard to recognize botting when it's a well-made bot. Any freshmen in college for computer programming/sciences can make a psudo-random pathing algorithm - Hell, that's exactly how the ghosts catch Packman. As for server logs, I honestly don't know how well they keep logs, so I can't say much about it. (I honestly thought they only kept trade/chat logs, and then only for a couple of weeks, but I could very well be wrong.)
Yes, that's what I'm saying... exactly like when they did their last big bot sweep, also exactly like when they did their gold seller crackdown...
In each case there was a (seemingly) large period of relative inaction by ArenaNet, as they investigated their targets and prepared for a mass ban, in both cases being careful to track and ban alt accounts used for botting as well as linked accounts that might not have used the bot but that were used for storage or as a main account.
And just like those other times, Anet's supposed reason for not acting on a case by case basis or otherwise keeping us up to date on their activities was... so as not to tip off of the violators that they were targeting, to help ensure they traced and then banned as many of the accounts as possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killamus View Post
Snip lengthy bit about how good bots are hard to detect
Yes, well crafted bots designed to avoid detection methods are, by their design, hard to detect. Not relevant to our discussion, no one is claiming that Anet got them all, no one is claiming that the best (in terms of detection difficulty) bots even got touched. Irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Killamus View Post
And keep in mind, even if they did check to see if there was an extraneous DLL being used, it's still possible to bot without it. Simply hook into the WinAPI and use that. The DLL used by most bots just make it convenient to others making bots so that they don't have to deal with all the bullcrap that is WinAPI. (Also makes it more compatible on stuff like WINE, etc)
Honestly, I doubt Anet took a single approach to catching bots, instead attempting a multilayered approach based on what resources and knowledge they had available to them. And no, I don't mean they blanket banned IP lists of bot downloaders

Given the nature and availability of many of these bots, Anet had the opportunity to study them first hand and devise detection methods... be that detecting certain .dll injection methods, observable patterns of behavior or any other criteria that could be used to flag a bot as not being normal human behavior... playing for three days straight, no breaks and never missing an interrupt, no player is that good, one would hope no bot user is that stupid... but it seems many were.

Again, this is all irrelevant. What is relevant...

Downloading something doesn't mean that you installed and used it.
Installing and using it means that you installed and used.

Simply blanket banning a list of IP addresses that downloaded a bot doesn't ensure that every IP address banned ever botted the game, or indeed violated any aspect of the EULA.

That simple.

If Anet did such a blanket ban based solely on an IP list of downloaders, then yes... FAIL ANET FAIL. Thankfully I have a little more faith in Anet than that.
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Old May 28, 2010, 02:22 AM // 02:22   #198
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Im born necromancer, and started as such in June 2005. My only complaint would, why wasnt I there and why wasnt I allowed to play with their corpses and raise funny stuff from them?
Yes anet has been lenient and let botters live for a long time, so long that ppl started to believe it was OK.
There was no new announcement stating that GW1 is dying, now you can all bot along while waiting for gw2.
Bots have all the time been officially forbidden and despised by me, im a proud incorrigible ale hound from manual clicking, I just rejoice if some cheaters get killed.
No doubt there are more undetected botters left, but I think the game has been cleaned a bit.
Most important, someone said we were having a meta with botting, with dhuum killing the scum we wont ever having a botter meta environment.
I hope my god Grenth can forgive me for raising a bottle to honor Dhuums feast
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Old May 28, 2010, 03:23 AM // 03:23   #199
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can ANET comment on the fact that at least one guild seems to have been blanket-banned?
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Old May 28, 2010, 01:31 PM // 13:31   #200
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Good job Anet on sending a visual reminder of what happens if you bot.

It'd be great if they could hang the bodies form the town gates for a while.
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